Episode 92 - Come and See

[00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of Movie Mistrial where we put cinema on trial and ask the tough questions. Was that film a masterpiece or are people just too polite to say it wasn't?

[00:00:10] Exactly. Today's film is difficult to watch and is widely regarded as one of the most harrowing war films ever made. We're talking about Adam Klimaw's 1985 Soviet film, Come and See.

[00:00:22] Yeah, this one isn't for the faint of heart. The film takes you deep into World War II's horrors from a young boy's perspective in Belarus. It's immersive, brutal and often leaves you stunned.

[00:00:33] It's one of those films that sticks with you long after the credits roll. But is it the cinematic masterpiece it's been praised to be? Or is its impact more from the shock value than the storytelling itself?

[00:00:44] And let's not forget that Come and See almost wasn't made. Klimov had to wait years for Soviet authorities to approve it. So, was all that effort worth it? Or does the film relentless violence overwhelm any narrative depth it could have had?

[00:00:59] Well, that's exactly what we're trying to break down today. How Come and See uses its cinematography, sound design and performance to create an unforgettable yet disturbing experience.

[00:01:11] But the big question is, does it achieve something beyond the horror it shows us?

[00:01:18] Well, grab your headphones, brace yourself and let's dive into this unsettling journey through war-torn Belarus. Here we go.

[00:01:40] Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

[00:01:44] Come and See is a harrowing war drama directed by LM Klimov set during World War II and Nazi-occupied Belarus.

[00:01:51] The story follows a young boy named Fleora who joins the Soviet resistance to fight against the German invasion.

[00:01:58] As Fleora witnesses unimaginable atrocities, his youthful innocence is stripped away and he's thrust into the horrors of war and human suffering.

[00:02:07] The film's powerful visuals and unflinching portrayal of violence convey the devastating impact of war on both individuals and entire communities.

[00:02:16] Come and See is widely acclaimed for its emotional intensity, raw realism and haunting depiction of the inhumanity of conflict, making it one of the most impactful anti-war films ever made.

[00:02:30] Alright, Raji, my friend, let's go flip a coin.

[00:02:34] I'm probably going to go with heads for this one.

[00:02:38] Tails, tails, tails.

[00:02:41] I'm glad, I'm curious to know which version of the conversation you're going to go for today.

[00:02:47] That's a good question.

[00:02:48] While I was watching it yesterday, I was really thinking about it.

[00:02:54] I'm going to speak for this film.

[00:02:55] You're going to speak for this film?

[00:02:57] Alright.

[00:02:58] The witness will address this quote as judge or your honor.

[00:03:01] The judge, the jury, and I guess that's everybody who's listening to this podcast.

[00:03:05] Come and See is an unflinching portrayal of war that can leave anybody who is watching, who is not particularly ready to stomach this kind of film,

[00:03:18] kind of stunned by the overwhelming use of visual violence to tell a story.

[00:03:26] There's a powerful design in how the director is going about trying to tell the story with surrealistic expressions,

[00:03:38] which doesn't actually fit any conventional cinematography style.

[00:03:45] So there's no structure to the movie.

[00:03:49] It feels so realistic, especially in the first half of the film.

[00:03:54] And as the intensity continues to build, we get thrown into the deep end with some of the most grotesque violence that I've ever seen in any movie.

[00:04:06] This movie lacks the ability to rewatch this movie, unless you're kind of a sadistic person who likes to see this kind of thing.

[00:04:14] But you watch an American version of World War II.

[00:04:19] It has a structure.

[00:04:20] It has a story.

[00:04:21] It has a hero.

[00:04:22] It has a hero.

[00:04:22] And it's combating evil for the sake of peace or prosperity going forward.

[00:04:32] This movie is in the position of weak versus strong.

[00:04:37] And you have a scenario where we see a cycle of violence that continues to occur.

[00:04:46] And this movie kind of captures the horrors of what war could look like.

[00:04:54] And because of that, because of the unflinching nature of this kind of description, this kind of visual storytelling,

[00:05:02] it kind of leaves a churn in your stomach.

[00:05:06] And I kept going, I can't believe I'm watching all of this.

[00:05:10] From a scene where we had to watch a cow die because it was shot live on the set.

[00:05:20] And you had to listen to it die and watch its eyes roll as it progressed into death, which was very, very disturbing to me.

[00:05:29] But unbeknownst to me, that was just the beginning of the craziness.

[00:05:33] Because up until that point, the movie was so realistic.

[00:05:37] It was like a coming of, coming to terms, coming to, it was, I forgot, what was the term again?

[00:05:50] Coming of age story of a boy who was enthusiastic about going to war at the very beginning,

[00:05:59] despite the pleas of his mom, and then seeing the horrors of the film.

[00:06:06] So, of the situation.

[00:06:09] But I think I'm going to be covering, my topics are going to be covering the relentless brutality of the story,

[00:06:16] the lack of narrative structure in general,

[00:06:19] and the fact that the movie is paced in a very weird way,

[00:06:23] because at the very beginning, it's slow, meandering,

[00:06:28] as we see them dance on wood, the rain, the nature.

[00:06:33] And then it just went berserk at the very end.

[00:06:38] And I can feel that this movie can be emotionally draining in general.

[00:06:43] But you know what?

[00:06:44] I'm going to let Johannes talk for the film.

[00:06:47] All right.

[00:06:48] Your Honor, Come and See is the first Russian film I've ever seen, I believe.

[00:06:55] I think I tried watching the Russian Lord of the Rings animated film.

[00:07:00] But anyway, that's beside the point.

[00:07:02] Didn't get through that.

[00:07:03] I did get through Come and See.

[00:07:04] So, Come and See.

[00:07:07] Very fascinating perspective on the Second World War.

[00:07:11] Because, as Raji mentioned, the classic perspective we get is the American heroes come in and save the day.

[00:07:20] Or the German anti-heroes, or I don't know if you can even call them anti-heroes,

[00:07:26] the Germans go out and lose the day.

[00:07:29] Right?

[00:07:30] So, now we have something kind of in between.

[00:07:37] Because we see a lot of suckiness from Germans.

[00:07:41] And nobody is saving the day.

[00:07:44] But we know that the Russian army eventually will.

[00:07:47] But we never get to see that in this film.

[00:07:50] The fascinating thing that I thought about while watching this film is that Come and See walked.

[00:07:57] So that 1917 can run.

[00:08:00] Because I saw 1917 the other day.

[00:08:02] And it's kind of similar in structure, in a way.

[00:08:07] Come and See doesn't have that shtick of being a continuous shot.

[00:08:11] But it kind of does, in a way.

[00:08:14] There's some cuts here and there.

[00:08:15] But time jumps.

[00:08:19] But narratively, there's kind of a similar thing happening.

[00:08:23] You have a young protagonist that is going on a journey through war.

[00:08:28] And the ending is very similar, too.

[00:08:31] Where he's meeting up with another young protagonist that is going up to war.

[00:08:36] So the cycle continues.

[00:08:37] I thought that was fascinating to just kind of see that this war narrative of young cannon fodder characters.

[00:08:48] It's just kind of the cycle that repeats itself.

[00:08:50] Because it's ugly.

[00:08:51] It's the ugly side of war.

[00:08:53] I found it very fascinating to watch.

[00:08:56] Like I said, it's brutal.

[00:08:58] And I think in that it's a very realistic depiction.

[00:09:02] War is ugly.

[00:09:03] I think with other films that we talked about on this show.

[00:09:07] Like Saving Private Ryan.

[00:09:10] War is ugly, too.

[00:09:11] It's a very different form of brutality, in a way.

[00:09:17] In many ways, it's still sanitized, which we don't get here.

[00:09:24] It's raw.

[00:09:25] And it's brutal.

[00:09:27] And it's unrelentless.

[00:09:29] It just keeps on giving.

[00:09:33] Especially toward the end.

[00:09:35] Like the pillaging of that village is insane.

[00:09:40] I won't say incredible.

[00:09:41] It's insane.

[00:09:43] It's so brutal and bad.

[00:09:45] And you know what's coming.

[00:09:46] And it's harrowing.

[00:09:47] And I'll close my opening statement with what a performance that young boy, Alexei Kravchenko, is giving here.

[00:10:04] The enthusiasm in the beginning to the numbness in the end.

[00:10:09] To the journey this boy has gone through.

[00:10:13] In nine months of shooting, I think.

[00:10:16] Incredible.

[00:10:17] Incredible performance.

[00:10:18] So it's...

[00:10:21] It's one of the most amazing anti-World War II films I've seen.

[00:10:28] I'm not sure I want to see this again because it is so harrowing and brutal.

[00:10:33] But it's a fantastic film.

[00:10:36] You know, the pacing is very weird in this movie.

[00:10:44] I think that, you know, it starts off, you know, he's digging in the sands and he finds the gun.

[00:10:53] And one of the things that the guy was trying to convince him of is, what are you doing?

[00:10:57] You know, you don't want to find that.

[00:10:59] You don't want to find the gun.

[00:11:01] And from that moment on, we go to his house with the gun.

[00:11:07] He's met by Belarusian soldiers who want to take him to war.

[00:11:14] And for the first 20 minutes, you get the idea that this movie is about them going to war.

[00:11:21] And then, you know, next thing you know, they take his boots and he's left alone.

[00:11:25] And then he's in a forest.

[00:11:27] And he's just playing around with this girl.

[00:11:31] And I'm going to this movie going...

[00:11:32] My wife is telling me that she's watched this movie.

[00:11:34] And it's a very difficult movie for her to watch because it's brutal.

[00:11:38] And I'm watching this movie and I've seen them dancing on the stones and dancing in the water.

[00:11:43] And I'm like, I don't think this is going to be a bad film.

[00:11:45] What the hell are you talking about?

[00:11:47] And, you know, as time goes on, you're seeing like, okay, the pace is getting faster.

[00:11:55] Then it's slowing down again because they're kind of an effigy of Hitler.

[00:11:59] And they're trying to put it into the middle of the street.

[00:12:04] And then it picks up again and it slows down.

[00:12:07] So the pacing is very weird.

[00:12:09] And I think that the biggest point of contention was the very end of the film where the guy sees a picture of Hitler that someone was carrying.

[00:12:19] And he's shooting that picture.

[00:12:21] And every single time we're shown a video clip of what, you know, Adolf Hitler was doing at a particular point.

[00:12:27] And it's reversing.

[00:12:29] And as time goes on, we realize that what he's trying to do is he's trying to kill Hitler when he was a baby so that he doesn't have to go through what he went through.

[00:12:39] But that changes the tone of the entire film as well, in a sense, because that's a totally different story that we are talking about.

[00:12:48] And that the pace of that was significantly quick compared to every single thing we had seen before.

[00:12:57] So in a sense, like I said, the pacing is inconsistent.

[00:13:02] And the lack of a narrative structure, because I'm going to say this.

[00:13:07] The close-ups were very good when it comes to portraying the effects of what you're seeing.

[00:13:16] But, you know, some of the shots were quite amazing.

[00:13:19] I cannot even dispute that.

[00:13:21] But the truth about it is a lot of the times, especially in the very first half of the film, I was going, what's the point of this?

[00:13:27] You know, I'm trying to figure out why everybody wants to jump into the shot and sit down and take a picture and all of that stuff.

[00:13:37] And some, you know, we get introduced to characters we never meet again.

[00:13:42] Maybe that is the effects of war.

[00:13:47] But I felt like there is a little bit of pacing, a case for pacing issues when it comes to how this movie is done.

[00:13:55] And some of the things that I had to see while watching this movie, like the kid being thrown back into the shed.

[00:14:03] The celebrations and the, you know, the director does a good job of capturing like the facial expressions of things that are being done while evil is being done.

[00:14:15] And there was a theme that was going on too.

[00:14:17] It's like they were talking about how the people drink before they do what they need to do.

[00:14:24] And we see the pilot who's in the plane, who's been dropping bombs.

[00:14:29] And then they expect a new one to drop.

[00:14:33] And then we notice it's a bottle and they go, oh, OK.

[00:14:37] And then he explains that they drink before they do stuff.

[00:14:41] And then at the end of the film, we're seeing them drinking as the massacre is happening.

[00:14:46] And I can tell you without a doubt that it's going to be extremely difficult for me to watch that kind of scene again.

[00:14:52] I've never seen anything like that in a movie.

[00:14:55] I've never seen grotesque violence like that.

[00:15:00] And the interesting thing is that grotesque violence is not like it is grotesque, but it's done in a very realistic way.

[00:15:08] It's not artistic.

[00:15:10] So it feels real.

[00:15:13] And that's the most disturbing part of it.

[00:15:16] It's going to be difficult for me to rewatch this movie.

[00:15:18] But I do have to say that, you know, my points.

[00:15:23] And I think that's one of the reasons why it's not great, too, because it's not a very commercial film to watch.

[00:15:28] Yeah.

[00:15:30] You were saying there's kind of not a good narrative structure.

[00:15:33] I disagree because I think that's kind of where my comparison with 1917 is coming in.

[00:15:41] Because I think 1917 is very clear.

[00:15:44] It's kind of a hero's journey.

[00:15:45] You have to get your brother.

[00:15:47] You have to tell the company of your brother to not do this.

[00:15:50] Otherwise, your brother dies.

[00:15:53] That's basically kind of the hero's kind of mission.

[00:15:59] Here, it's kind of a self-prescribed hero's journey in a way.

[00:16:03] He wants to be part of the war.

[00:16:05] He thinks he's a child.

[00:16:08] I think that's kind of the most brutal thing of it all, right?

[00:16:11] He's a naive child.

[00:16:12] He doesn't understand what he's getting into.

[00:16:15] But it's like, hey, I got a gun.

[00:16:16] This is cool.

[00:16:19] And he's kind of naturally going from A to B.

[00:16:28] And the biggest journey he goes with the three companions is to get food.

[00:16:34] And that's kind of the mission he is on.

[00:16:36] And that kind of spirals into the insanity.

[00:16:42] To the end.

[00:16:46] Well, it's all kind of starting with discovering his hometown and all that.

[00:16:54] And even there, he's like the naive child.

[00:16:56] It's like, oh, they're coming back.

[00:16:57] The food is still warm.

[00:16:59] Not even recognizing all the flies and running past all the bodies and all that.

[00:17:04] So he's just kind of very childish because he's a child.

[00:17:10] But then grows up very quickly when he's crossing that muddy water.

[00:17:17] He's forced to grow up very quickly, too.

[00:17:20] And in a way, I think that's kind of the narrative stance that this movie is doing and taking.

[00:17:26] Is that war is taking a toll on the innocent.

[00:17:31] And the big toll that you cannot quantize, really.

[00:17:37] Right.

[00:17:39] And even when the cow dies, right?

[00:17:43] Like he's still on this, like we got to get food back to the people.

[00:17:47] Like I got to drag this cow over the field.

[00:17:50] Which is like your child, dude.

[00:17:53] Like no chance in hell.

[00:17:55] But yeah, it's brutal.

[00:17:59] But I think, I guess my point is that it's fascinating to see the war from a completely different perspective.

[00:18:10] Because the perspective we're used to is fairly sanitized.

[00:18:14] There is brutality in different shapes or forms.

[00:18:20] Like I said, Saving Private Ryan has brutality in the first 20 minutes when they land on the beach.

[00:18:26] And it's taking you back and it's like, oh, it's brutal.

[00:18:30] But it's also pretty sanitized for the American audience still.

[00:18:34] Right.

[00:18:35] Versus this film has a completely different, almost like unfiltered.

[00:18:40] I think there's a filter in there because it was banned for like nine years for release.

[00:18:49] Because it's not necessarily showing that side of the army in the best light.

[00:18:56] Right.

[00:18:56] I mean, this is kind of a rebellious faction, I guess.

[00:19:01] Right.

[00:19:02] It's not the official Russian army or Soviet army.

[00:19:05] Yeah.

[00:19:08] But still, right.

[00:19:09] They're not necessarily the most competent folk out there.

[00:19:17] But that's also reality of war.

[00:19:20] And there are so many kids and there are so many farmers and they just want to participate and protect their country.

[00:19:29] And suffer for it.

[00:19:31] Right.

[00:19:31] So, I feel like I'm somewhat talking in circles, but it's like, I think the brilliance of this film is that we are witnessing something from a completely different perspective that we've not seen before.

[00:19:44] Narratively, it's still familiar, though, because war doesn't change.

[00:19:48] War is ugly, gross, and brutal.

[00:19:51] But it's a very, very unfiltered, almost childlike version that is so raw that it's quite fascinating to see.

[00:20:06] So, yeah, I highly recommend.

[00:20:07] I would not watch this again because it is really unrelenting.

[00:20:11] But it's a great film.

[00:20:14] I'm going to, you know, I think you've mentioned the 1917 film a number of times.

[00:20:19] And I think I want to talk to that because I think, in a sense, when I'm talking about narrative structure, I think I disagree with you on, I agree with you on 1917 being a visual spectacle like this one is.

[00:20:35] And the journey being, in fact, I would say, like there's even some similarities in the journeys they had.

[00:20:43] Like him running through the field and explosions happening everywhere.

[00:20:46] Him crawling through no man's land while people were shooting.

[00:20:52] You know, which was kind of similar to what they were doing in the dark with the cow.

[00:20:59] So there are some similarities.

[00:21:01] But I will say that one of the things that 1917 does at the very beginning is set the tone of the film and set the purpose of the film.

[00:21:10] You're going through German land and you need to get to the other side to stop them from running across because the Germans are waiting for them.

[00:21:23] And everybody, including your brother, could get killed if they go, if they break the line.

[00:21:30] So you have that idea in your head.

[00:21:32] So every single thing you're seeing, the actor do, we know it's happening for a purpose.

[00:21:40] Right?

[00:21:40] Like him running through the mountains after the Germans had left and it exploding.

[00:21:46] The fight with the pilot who landed and killed his friend.

[00:21:52] The running through the buildings at night, the German encampment at night as all of them stood up and tried to catch him.

[00:22:00] Falling into the...

[00:22:00] Everything was for that purpose.

[00:22:02] He needs to go save his brother.

[00:22:04] But this one was a bit different.

[00:22:05] You know, we have a kid who is naive.

[00:22:07] There's no particular goal he has in mind.

[00:22:09] He found a gun and he wants to go shoot the Germans.

[00:22:14] And his mom is telling him like, hey, you can't be doing that.

[00:22:17] You know, who's going to protect us?

[00:22:19] And he's like, ah, these guys are coming.

[00:22:21] You know, the interesting thing was when the Belarusian resistance force came to his mom's house,

[00:22:26] they were just as brutal.

[00:22:29] Well, not just as brutal.

[00:22:30] So they were very unfair to the woman too.

[00:22:33] You know, they took all her buttermilk.

[00:22:36] They grabbed her chickens.

[00:22:37] They forcibly dismissed her while they took her son, while she screamed and begged for them to let her be.

[00:22:44] So, you know, it was a cycle of violence.

[00:22:47] The kid goes to the war.

[00:22:49] They say he's too young because when he puts him on guard, he had one task to shoot anybody who doesn't know the password.

[00:22:56] And he couldn't even do that task.

[00:22:58] So they were like, all right, cool.

[00:23:00] You know, you can't really do go to war.

[00:23:02] Just give us your boots and just play.

[00:23:04] Stay here.

[00:23:04] And they leave him.

[00:23:05] And the kid had no purpose for a long time.

[00:23:08] And once the war starts, he wants to go back home to his mom and take the girl with him so that his mom can meet her.

[00:23:14] And basically the whole movie was just the kid being naive and reacting to situations that he couldn't control.

[00:23:23] There was a little bit more urgency with 1917.

[00:23:26] And just because of the fact that we've set the plot at the very beginning for what the protagonist was trying to do,

[00:23:34] every single action seemed to fit that particular purpose.

[00:23:38] So the narrative structure argument, I feel, are not entirely equivalent.

[00:23:44] But I will agree with you that the expertise, the filming, the style and the grandiosity of what we watched is very, very similar.

[00:23:58] I think, I mean, the more I think about it and the more you kind of try to point flaws at my argument there.

[00:24:04] I think the, so the, the, the, the fascinating thing, what I started getting into was like he, his journey really, really starts when he comes back home.

[00:24:18] Right.

[00:24:19] And there's nobody there.

[00:24:21] And what I think, what you can draw kind of from, from a narrative perspective, the first time he's really interacting with war is when, when the woods are bombed and he's losing his hearing.

[00:24:38] And great sound design at that point, by the way, because it's just kind of disorienting as well.

[00:24:44] And he's like, okay, I'm out.

[00:24:45] I'm going to go home, which is such a childlike thing.

[00:24:48] Right.

[00:24:48] Like that, of course, of course, it's like, okay, this is way too real.

[00:24:52] I'm, I'm out.

[00:24:53] Right.

[00:24:54] And he doesn't have a home to come home to.

[00:24:57] Right.

[00:24:58] And that's, that's where his journey really starts.

[00:25:00] So it's, I, I, I know, I, I understand what you're saying because you're saying that like to get to that point, it's taking a long time versus something like 1917 straight to the point because it's focusing on what happens after.

[00:25:13] And like, you know, you get your mission, you do your thing here.

[00:25:18] It takes a long time for him to go on that path and go, go on the path of horror for the, for the broken.

[00:25:28] Go ahead.

[00:25:28] You know, the interesting thing was that he never even saw the bodies.

[00:25:32] No.

[00:25:33] He never, it was the girl who saw the bodies.

[00:25:35] And once she saw it, she was like, she couldn't believe what she saw.

[00:25:40] And the boy was in denial dismissal, just going through the mud, trying to get to the other side because he felt like they had to be on the other side.

[00:25:48] So, you know, he was naive to all of it.

[00:25:51] And it wasn't until they met the villagers when they were like, they killed all of his family.

[00:25:55] They killed all of his family.

[00:25:56] And that was when he was, he goes into like a mental shock state.

[00:26:00] And I have to say the acting in those scenes were incredible.

[00:26:04] Yeah.

[00:26:05] Is that a kid?

[00:26:06] He had to be like 13 to 15 years old doing all of those things.

[00:26:11] But yeah, it was, it was, it was very interesting.

[00:26:15] Yeah.

[00:26:16] But it's, it's, it's at that moment when he knew he fucked up.

[00:26:20] Oh, but it's at that moment where his real journey starts, right?

[00:26:26] He's just kind of strung along and he's like, he's trying to find a task, I guess, to do to distract from the trauma.

[00:26:35] But that task is only adding on to it and adding on to it and adding on to it.

[00:26:40] And I mean, you, you were pointing out that the ending when he shoots that, that Hitler portrait.

[00:26:45] And it's kind of a tonal shift because then we see real film of the war and we see even, you know, real suffering.

[00:26:59] And we, we couldn't go back in time, back in time, back in time, back in time.

[00:27:03] And he chooses not to shoot at, at the baby picture.

[00:27:07] I, if I recall correctly, is that right?

[00:27:10] What does he, I think that's where he draws a line.

[00:27:14] Well, I'm not entirely sure.

[00:27:15] I think I've, I think he, I actually did shoot the baby, but I'm, I can't, I can't be sure.

[00:27:22] But let's just, let's just go with the premise you have.

[00:27:26] I believe.

[00:27:27] And so it's, it's almost like it's, it's going circle of like, you know, at that point he's still innocent.

[00:27:33] Like, and I still see that because I was there too.

[00:27:37] Right.

[00:27:38] Yeah.

[00:27:38] Um, but I'm, I'm, I'm no longer that.

[00:27:43] Right.

[00:27:43] Maybe we can, we can start anew and maybe the world goes on a different path.

[00:27:48] Maybe that dude gets into art college.

[00:27:54] We're all spared this.

[00:27:56] Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of fascinating way to, to end this film.

[00:28:03] But again, uh, it's, it's drawing the same circle as, as something like 1917.

[00:28:08] I think 1917 also does that in the beginning, right?

[00:28:12] Where, where, um, the, we think it's the protagonist, but that kid, the young kid is, is, I know that's,

[00:28:20] um, all quiet on the West End front.

[00:28:21] Same thing.

[00:28:22] Right.

[00:28:23] Where it's like the, the, the horrors of the war inflicted upon young kids, um, that are thrown into it because they're like the last, um, body of, of defense that we have.

[00:28:36] Um, and it's just kind of shown as the cycle of wars unrelenting.

[00:28:42] And, uh, all quiet on the West End front.

[00:28:44] We also have a kid that goes into the first world war, gets killed, and then we follow what happens with, with the clothes.

[00:28:54] And he, those clothes get reassigned to another kid.

[00:28:57] And we follow that kid throughout the movie.

[00:29:01] And here in this film, it's similar that we follow the first kid and he does not get killed.

[00:29:07] But we see him meet another kid in the same kind of uniform with a little suitcase on his back and all that.

[00:29:16] And, uh, you know, being, being strung along with, uh, with that army or with, with the soldiers, um, with a rebellion, however you want to call it.

[00:29:27] And, um, it's, it's just a dreadful, ugly side of war, right?

[00:29:34] Because it's, it's just, it's unrelenting.

[00:29:37] It doesn't stop until it stops.

[00:29:39] But until that happens, it's brutal and, uh, just keeps, keeps on being ugly.

[00:29:47] So, yeah, I think it's, it's great.

[00:29:50] Um, and I, I'll just touch on that limited rewatchability because I think a lot of the points you made kind of encompasses it.

[00:29:57] Most of the films we watch usually have a balance of despair and hope or catharsis.

[00:30:04] And I don't think a catharsis exists in this movie.

[00:30:08] Um, what we see is a cycle.

[00:30:11] Um, because just as the kid was exposed to violence, he exposed others to violence.

[00:30:16] And we are seeing them go into war and you know that they are going to commit violence and the Germans are going to be violent.

[00:30:24] And it's just a cycle of violence that continues.

[00:30:26] Um, and I think that's the message.

[00:30:30] That's the most powerful message of the film.

[00:30:32] No matter how much, um, how much we wanted to, to care for the kid's innocence.

[00:30:40] The truth is the kid has grown decades within that period of time.

[00:30:47] And he's never going to be the same again.

[00:30:49] Right.

[00:30:52] That's all I had.

[00:30:53] Should we go to the sidebar?

[00:30:55] Yeah, let's go to the sidebar.

[00:30:57] Overruled.

[00:30:57] Sidebar.

[00:30:57] Guilty.

[00:30:58] Speculation.

[00:30:58] Here.

[00:30:59] Say.

[00:30:59] Bailiff.

[00:30:59] Briefcase.

[00:31:00] Disregard.

[00:31:00] In my chamber.

[00:31:01] Stop Beaver and the witness.

[00:31:02] I rest.

[00:31:02] We could totally be lawyers.

[00:31:04] Sidebar.

[00:31:04] You know, the interesting thing is we've been watching a lot of depressing films of late

[00:31:08] man.

[00:31:09] Yeah, I know.

[00:31:10] The last movie we saw was Carpenum.

[00:31:12] And I was like, wow, this movie is really depressing.

[00:31:14] And then I watched this one and it's like, man, what is going on with this?

[00:31:20] But I think they all have like powerful statements they want to make.

[00:31:24] And I think that the movie, to be honest with you, you mentioned the sound design in this

[00:31:29] movie.

[00:31:30] The sound design is incredible.

[00:31:33] And almost like almost everything you see feels like you're in there.

[00:31:40] You're feeling the sound, the floor vibrate as the bullets ring.

[00:31:47] You're seeing the explosions.

[00:31:48] You're hearing everything.

[00:31:49] It's the use of sound design is really, really incredible in this movie.

[00:31:54] Um, and one of the things that I also want to point out is like the use of the close

[00:31:58] up shorts, close up shorts, um, is extremely powerful.

[00:32:03] Some of them felt like they're breaking the fourth wall, um, in some scenarios.

[00:32:08] Um, but generally speaking, I get the look on the girl's face when she saw all the bodies

[00:32:15] at the building is, was perfect.

[00:32:18] Like it, it like changed the tone of the film for me.

[00:32:21] Like immediately she did that.

[00:32:22] I was like, Oh wow.

[00:32:23] We're watching a horror film.

[00:32:24] And then I was like, okay, cool.

[00:32:27] This is going to be weird.

[00:32:28] This is going to be crazy.

[00:32:30] What are we good?

[00:32:30] What would, what do we expect?

[00:32:32] His, his eye, him holding his head and shaking, um, after the, he is, she kept saying like,

[00:32:39] your whole family has been killed.

[00:32:41] The village has been destroyed.

[00:32:42] That was also very powerful.

[00:32:44] I don't know.

[00:32:45] The movie is, the movie is a technical masterpiece.

[00:32:49] The story is a technical masterpiece.

[00:32:50] It's just that it's too powerful to keep rewatching.

[00:32:56] And it's one of the most difficult films for me.

[00:32:59] Yeah.

[00:33:00] Yeah.

[00:33:00] So I was actually not that big on this film, but, but, um, because I agree with a lot of

[00:33:08] your criticism that the pacing is just, it's taking a long time to get to the point where

[00:33:13] it's picking up speed.

[00:33:15] Right.

[00:33:15] And then it's, yeah.

[00:33:18] So, so I think we're supposed to get to learn the boy a little more and just kind of get

[00:33:25] to learn about his naivete.

[00:33:27] I think that is pretty well established very quickly.

[00:33:30] And then it just feels meandering a bit.

[00:33:32] And, um, unfortunately, because it's, it's, it's a little, come on, let's get on with

[00:33:39] it.

[00:33:39] But, um, like I said a couple of times, the, the, the different perspective on, on this

[00:33:47] war and this, um, conflict was very interesting to me.

[00:33:52] I think the, the different perspective on how to depict Germans was fascinating to me as

[00:34:00] well, because usually, uh, Germans in the second world war are just like, I portrayed

[00:34:09] more, um, menacing and powerful.

[00:34:13] And here it's just drunken ugliness.

[00:34:18] Right.

[00:34:19] But, but I, like, I think there's some sort of menace in a way.

[00:34:24] Um, like there's the scene when this, um, this, uh, rank soldier goes into the house

[00:34:33] and, uh, everybody's giving him food to kind of try to please him.

[00:34:37] Uh, I think, I think there's that element, but I think the, the, um, I guess what I'm

[00:34:45] trying to say is usually the German army is, is displayed or portrayed more in a put together

[00:34:50] kind of sense.

[00:34:51] And here it's just chaotic, like the chaotic evil versus the, you know, very organized,

[00:34:57] um, methodical evil.

[00:35:00] Right.

[00:35:00] Here it's just like, uh, when he leaves the barn through the window and he's just kind

[00:35:07] of looking around, he's like, it's chaos, right?

[00:35:10] There's dudes on the motorcycles.

[00:35:12] There's a lot of things happening.

[00:35:14] And he's just kind of like, what is going on here?

[00:35:16] Which is very realistic, which is very realistic because I think that's just what probably

[00:35:23] happened, right?

[00:35:24] Like this, this is not an orderly situation, right?

[00:35:28] This is just, uh, we have the power.

[00:35:31] We can do whatever the frick we want and we're going to do it.

[00:35:36] You cannot change that because we can't, we have the power here.

[00:35:39] So I thought that that was interesting because it's not something we see a lot, um, for Germans

[00:35:46] in war films.

[00:35:48] Um, either they, depending on which side you are, right?

[00:35:52] Either, uh, in the film, either they, they are kind of the somewhat dumb stormtrooper yet

[00:36:03] menacing power or the menacing power strategically that got whatever, for whatever reason overpowered.

[00:36:10] Right.

[00:36:11] But it's, it's not this chaoticness that I thought was fascinating to me.

[00:36:16] But, um, but yeah, what's your thought on that?

[00:36:19] Yeah.

[00:36:20] I think you bring up an interesting point.

[00:36:22] It's like when you brought it up, I was like, you know, you're right.

[00:36:25] I've never really seen a chaotic German regiment do all of this.

[00:36:30] It's usually like very well put together, but this movie is the first movie I've seen

[00:36:35] that portrays them.

[00:36:36] It portrays them like a swarm.

[00:36:39] They ravage and they leave.

[00:36:41] And while they're ravaging, they're loud.

[00:36:43] It's buzzy.

[00:36:45] It's crazy.

[00:36:45] And everything is chaotic while it's happening.

[00:36:48] Right.

[00:36:48] And they're drawn.

[00:36:49] Yeah.

[00:36:49] Which seems so out of character in a way.

[00:36:51] Well, yeah.

[00:36:52] In a way, right.

[00:36:53] It's like army stone don't do things when they're drunk.

[00:36:57] Yeah.

[00:36:58] So it's, it's, it's very interesting your point.

[00:37:02] And I think I'm going to have to think about that, but I'm curious to know you've seen,

[00:37:07] we've seen a ton of movies like this now.

[00:37:10] How does this kind of stuff affect you?

[00:37:12] Given your, you being German.

[00:37:19] Um, well, I'm sorry.

[00:37:22] I'm so, so removed time-wise from all that.

[00:37:26] Like it's.

[00:37:26] Fair enough.

[00:37:27] The, the thing is when I went to school in Germany, um, it's almost like in every, every

[00:37:41] subject that you deal with in school is, is having some sort of hook into what happened

[00:37:46] during the second world war.

[00:37:49] In a way.

[00:37:50] And it's like, um, you know, you, you deal with it in German class, you deal with it

[00:37:55] in, in history class, you deal with it in English class, because you look at the, the, uh,

[00:38:01] British side of things.

[00:38:02] Um, you deal with it in so many, so many subjects.

[00:38:07] Right.

[00:38:08] And the, the, the commonality through that is shame.

[00:38:12] And it's like, this can never happen again.

[00:38:15] Right.

[00:38:15] So, so there's a lot of baggage already, um, loaded onto me as a, as a German child when

[00:38:22] it comes to that.

[00:38:22] And so now with, with a little more age and perspective, I, I can really look at that and,

[00:38:31] and just kind of, um, understand it better.

[00:38:35] There was a time where I was really just trying to understand it as a teenager, right?

[00:38:41] Because it's, it's this weird complex.

[00:38:43] Like how can, how can anybody do this?

[00:38:46] Right.

[00:38:47] And you try to understand, but you can't really.

[00:38:51] Um, and I think you still cannot understand why, uh, and kind of the methodicalness of

[00:39:00] it, but, uh, the, the different forms of, um, shining lights onto the evil has been really

[00:39:08] fascinating.

[00:39:09] Let's say one, one, one, one of the best recent films is zone of interest, which is also dealing

[00:39:15] with, with that, right?

[00:39:16] It's a British film ultimately, but it has German, German actors in it.

[00:39:20] And it's, it's taking Auschwitz as the, the constant droning side character.

[00:39:29] And we never see what's going on there.

[00:39:30] We hear it and we, we see the banality of, and kind of the, the odd normality of living

[00:39:40] right next to it and being in charge of it and, and kind of how, how that twists your

[00:39:48] mind into justifying whatever's happening there.

[00:39:53] Um, fascinating film.

[00:39:55] But again, it's, it's this like, this is not cool, right?

[00:39:59] Like this is not normal.

[00:40:00] And this is, this is awful.

[00:40:02] Right.

[00:40:03] How can you, how, how can you be that way?

[00:40:06] How can you think this is cool?

[00:40:09] Right.

[00:40:09] How can you live with yourself living right next to what's going on there?

[00:40:14] And you know, this, you have to know this.

[00:40:17] Right.

[00:40:18] Um, so yeah, it's, it's kind of complicated, but it's like, at this point, I'm like, it's

[00:40:25] the art that is coming out of it is, is fascinating to me.

[00:40:29] And it's, um, I guess it's interesting to see these different perspectives because it's

[00:40:34] such a weird, complicated mess that is hard to understand, but there's many people that

[00:40:40] try to make it make sense.

[00:40:42] And, um, that's something positive, I guess.

[00:40:46] How do you think about all that?

[00:40:49] Man, I, you know, you bring up a zone of interest and it takes you a lot of time.

[00:40:54] It takes me straight to the boy in the striped pajamas, um, where, you know, they were right

[00:41:00] by the prison and their dad was one of the, um, prison leaders.

[00:41:04] And obviously it was a British movie as well too.

[00:41:07] Uh, but basically how did I, I, you know, it's very traumatic to watch because when I think

[00:41:16] about the Nazis, I always think like, yo, I'm no, I would never, there would never have

[00:41:20] been a fan of me.

[00:41:21] And when I was watching the movie, I was saying to myself, what would I do if a bunch of soldiers

[00:41:27] came to the, to the, to my camp or my village, um, and just forced us into a building and

[00:41:35] turned it on.

[00:41:36] I think that was the most upsetting part of it for me because I just, it felt like I

[00:41:42] was, there was nothing I could do about it.

[00:41:44] You know, there was nothing I could do about a scenario like that.

[00:41:47] It's like, if you fight, they shoot you, uh, and they put you on a motorcycle and parade

[00:41:51] your body everywhere.

[00:41:53] Um, and if you don't fight, you just get burned and you get, and everybody, you die as people

[00:41:59] laugh behind.

[00:42:00] But I also feel like, you know, it's definitely not the Germans today are not the ones who did

[00:42:06] those crimes.

[00:42:07] So there has to be a certain level of disconnect when you watch, but you cannot ignore history.

[00:42:13] Um, and you know, it's, it's, it's very difficult.

[00:42:18] It's really, you know, I was watching this going, you know, what would Johannes say about

[00:42:21] this?

[00:42:22] Because it just was shocking.

[00:42:26] But, um, I think it's, it's good that this movie exists.

[00:42:32] Yeah.

[00:42:34] It's incredible that this movie exists and I'm so glad it's alive around.

[00:42:38] I think before we ever go to war, I think people should watch this movie because it

[00:42:46] kind of depicts the cycle of violence that could occur.

[00:42:49] It always breaks down into this.

[00:42:52] Um, and the people who go for war generally don't have the big picture in mind.

[00:42:59] They are trying to live day for day.

[00:43:00] The big people, the people who have the big story in mind don't go to work.

[00:43:05] They just sit in their courage and tell people what to do.

[00:43:07] And there's always a disconnect because the people underground are the ones who always

[00:43:11] suffer the consequences.

[00:43:13] So no wars, please.

[00:43:15] Yeah, please.

[00:43:17] Please.

[00:43:18] Can we not?

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:20] Can we not?

[00:43:22] No, can we just do drag shows or something?

[00:43:26] Oh, I mean, that would be fun.

[00:43:28] I know.

[00:43:29] For sure.

[00:43:29] That would be a lot more fun.

[00:43:31] I know.

[00:43:32] Just, you know, invest your energy to slay.

[00:43:41] With hands.

[00:43:44] But yeah, I think the depressing movies are ending for this year.

[00:43:50] Are they?

[00:43:50] Because the next movie on the list is Required for a Dream.

[00:43:54] Which is another weird, depressing movie.

[00:43:58] Well, but at least it's not like the terrors of war, I guess.

[00:44:04] Fair enough.

[00:44:05] So.

[00:44:06] But it's a terror of overdose.

[00:44:09] Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:11] That's right.

[00:44:12] And you know the weird thing after that is Toy Story 3, which is still a depressing film.

[00:44:17] Not a depressing film overall, but I remember crying in that movie.

[00:44:22] Wait, Toy Story 3.

[00:44:23] Is that the one?

[00:44:25] It may be Toy Story 4 that I'm thinking about.

[00:44:28] Is that Toy Story 4?

[00:44:29] I have no idea.

[00:44:30] They're all the same.

[00:44:33] I'm sorry.

[00:44:34] No, it was Toy Story 3.

[00:44:36] Toy Story 4, yes.

[00:44:38] There is a Toy Story 4.

[00:44:39] Toy Story 3 with the bear.

[00:44:41] Okay.

[00:44:43] Where the bear is the baddie.

[00:44:46] Yeah, Toy Story 4 came out in 2019.

[00:44:49] And Toy Story 5 is not out yet.

[00:44:51] It's coming out in 2026.

[00:44:53] So yeah, Toy Story 3, not so depressing.

[00:44:56] So we will end our depressing run at that point.

[00:45:00] Right, right.

[00:45:02] Until then though, where can people find us?

[00:45:04] They can find us on X, at Movie Mistrial.

[00:45:07] They can also send us a message on Facebook and Instagram.

[00:45:10] Or they can send us an email to...

[00:45:13] Contact at MovieMistrial.com

[00:45:17] It's been great having this discussion with you.

[00:45:20] Yeah.

[00:45:21] Hopefully people get around and watch this movie.

[00:45:23] Even if it's only once.

[00:45:25] I think it's a very harrowing tale.

[00:45:27] And it's really good.

[00:45:28] So, but...

[00:45:29] Till then, ciao.

[00:45:31] Ciao.