Episode 97 - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

[00:00:01] Welcome back to Movie Mistrial, the podcast where we put your favorite or not so favorite films on trial. I'm Johannes, your co-host and courtroom clerk for this cinematic case. And I am Raji, your cinematic plot hole whisperer. Today's film is a big one folks. We're talking about Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, directed by Michael Gundry and written by Charlie Kaufman.

[00:00:27] The movie released in 2004 follows Joel and Clementine as they erase memories of their failed relationship, only for Joel to realize he doesn't want to forget their love. This leads to a surreal and emotional exploration of love, lust and the human need for connection. That's right. This movie is a story of love, heartbreak and erasing memories. Literally.

[00:00:50] Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet lead this exploration of whether some memories are better left forgotten or if love is worth the pain. But is this film a masterpiece or just an overly complex heartbreak story disguised as art? Grab your notebooks and try not to forget your opinions because this is Movie Mistrial and today Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is on trial.

[00:01:13] Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God? Okay folks, so this is an interesting film.

[00:01:36] You know the interesting, well I mean before we go deep into the film, I will say that it's been a while since I watched this movie and then re-watching it again recently brings back a lot of memories. And I think at the end of the film I appreciated the film a lot more than I did when I was younger. Yeah, I don't think I've seen this before. And there's a reason for that. Because I'm not a Jim Carrey fan.

[00:02:03] I find him to be overly overacting for the most part. I'm glad he didn't do that here. This is a Jim Carrey I can enjoy. Interesting. But, so yeah, I always stay clear of this film because I really, that dude really annoys me in a lot of other films. You know, the interesting thing is like, I will say that Jim Carrey in a lot of his dramatic roles is a very, very good actor.

[00:02:33] And you know, he was great in Man on the Moon. He was great in, I think it was Man on the Moon, yes. The one who was playing the comedian. And he was also good in The Cable Guy, even though he was a little bit weird. But The Truman Show and this one are probably his good. His really, really good films.

[00:02:56] The more interesting thing was that this movie was around the same time where all these sad movies were coming out together. Because I remember this time vividly because God in State also came out this year. Starring Zach Braff and Natalie Portman. And it was a year of sad films, in a sense. Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:20] Yeah, I've only seen the follow-up film, which is not related to this, but of Michel Gondry, which is Science of Sleep. Great film. And I saw that in the theater. So that was also very interesting visually. Like, I think we'll probably talk about that in this film too. But, so yeah, interesting director. One you don't see and hear much about. Interesting.

[00:03:42] I haven't seen Science of Sleep, but it stars Charlotte Gainsbourg and Gil Garcia Bernal. This trailer looks interesting. And, you know, I'm a big fan of Charlotte Gainsbourg. Her music and her acting. But, anyway, let's talk about this movie. Yeah, before we talk about it, let's flip a coin. So what's it going to be?

[00:04:11] I'm going to go with Heads. Heads it is. I am going to talk for this film. Okay. So you're going to talk for this film. Well, let's dive right in. The witness will address this quote as judge or your honor. Ladies and gentlemen. Your Honor. Everybody in between. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. I wanted to say Science of Sleep.

[00:04:40] We're not talking about this film. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Is visually interesting. Yet utterly confusing and depressing. and kind of pointless in a way. And, like, we are strung along on a non-linear story of exploration and finding love, lust, grief,

[00:05:12] and depression, in a way. Like, finding yourself and finding others. With a weird science-y device where we can erase memories of people. But it's imperfect. And all kind of narratively strung through multiple phases of the main character's life. Where thoughts and memories intertwine.

[00:05:40] And what we're getting is kind of a mess. It's a beautiful mess. You can look at it and be like, oh, this is pretty. This is interesting. But it is fundamentally quite the mess. Because at the end of the day, what is happening here? We have Joel, our main character, find love. Go through love. Lose that love. To the point where his lover does not recognize him anymore.

[00:06:08] And he figures out that she erased all memories of him. And then he's going through the same process. Only to find out and way through the process that that's not what he wants. And I'm not entirely sure why we needed to go through this in a non-linear way. Because I think there's a lot of interesting things you could explore if you tell this story linearly.

[00:06:40] But going through the non-linear path, I think this is overly confusing and artsy. And it doesn't need to be that. Because I think at the core, there's something interesting there that we could tell in a more streamlined way that is much more compelling. That's my opening statement. I'm going to start with the fact that this movie won an Academy Award for Best Screenplay.

[00:07:08] And the quality of the screenplay shows. Because this movie is an exploration of the human condition when it comes to love and familiarity. We start with the very beginning where we meet this man who doesn't want to go to work because he's not feeling great. He goes to a beach. And then he meets this girl who seems overly familiar with him. Very forward.

[00:07:38] Very forward. And she's making advances at him. And he's trying to be a recuse. Trying to move away from her at every turn. But he feels strangely drawn towards her. And at the end of it, you know, they're talking about getting married. And, you know, they had a good night where they live by the night sky. And in the morning, she wants to grab her toothbrush and come over and stay.

[00:08:08] So there's a sense of familiarity between them. And then all of a sudden, we go into the past. And we're not, like, giving, like, warning signs or signs that we're actually doing this. So there's some complexity in putting everything together. He's crying. He's driving. He's feeling lonely. He's feeling sad. And you're not entirely sure whether that's the future or that's the past. But as the film proceeds, you begin to realize, like, oh, this is not going exactly as planned.

[00:08:37] This is not going the exact way you're expecting it to go. But the moment you realize that there's something going wrong was when he starts to talk about the first time he ever met her. And he says something like, you know, I was with Naomi at the time. And I went to a birthday party on the beach. And I saw this girl in an orange sweater standing in the background. And I just felt drawn to her. And then you remember the beginning of the film and everything starts to click.

[00:09:06] Like, oh, wow, this is strange. This is not what I expected. And, you know, you get drawn into the movie. You see the complexities of the characters. And as time goes on, you start to feel the sudden, the pang of letting go of somebody you've loved in the past and the effects of that.

[00:09:29] Like, even through the best and the worst times, clearing your mind of that emotion of people that have made such significance to you. It feels very heavy in this film. And the director uses an innovative style to try to capture that. The use of practical effects. Like standing in unusual use of visual effects as well. Like at the end when we're standing in the library.

[00:09:59] And as they were talking, all the names on the books were disappearing. It felt like they were actually erasing the memory from their minds. Though, you know, he goes to the house with her. And as they stood there, the house decayed right before them. So it felt like you were in his mind. And trying to hold on to these memories.

[00:10:27] Not just for you, but for him. Because when he woke up and he saw the doctors doing all of their stuff, wiping his memory. The tear drawing down his eyes as he stared motionless. That felt heavy. And I felt like the director did a great job of capturing the heaviness of the idea of wiping someone's memory out.

[00:10:56] And the interesting thing about it is, you know, the dichotomy about this movie is that despite the fact that people wipe memories, people still stay attracted to each other. It's like, so the whole physical effect of doing this wiping of memory, the evasiveness, the invasiveness of doing the whole process is all for naught.

[00:11:25] Because just reading out things or saying things that somebody doesn't feel natural to other people compared to the people who you're attracted to. So I think this movie has a lot of things that are very thought-provoking. It has a lot of, it has a human emotional aspect to it that questions the idea of love and physical attraction.

[00:11:51] And I felt like it does a good job of brilliantly capturing all of that in a 1 hour 47 minute runtime. Hmm. I think the, so the, like I said, kind of the non-linear way of telling this is in a way, a way to bolster up the time. And it's artificially inflating the story that we're telling.

[00:12:17] And again, like, yes, it may provide for some pretty artsy cinema, which is, you know, respectable in its own, I suppose. But from a, from a story point, I think we're not gaining a lot other than, than kind of interesting visuals, I suppose. The, um, I think the, the main problem is it's, it's just kind of meandering for a long time, right?

[00:12:47] Especially the, that long sequence in the last third when, when he is undergoing the treatment and he is actively being erased upon. Basically is like, uh, there's a lot of B plot that is happening. That is really not that, uh, significant in my mind.

[00:13:11] Like you, you have all the, the Mark Ruffalo, the Elijah Wood and Tom Wilkerson and Kirsten Dunst, um, B plot stuff that is, um, not necessarily really bringing the, the, the plot forward. It's giving a little more color to, uh, kind of the rinky dink, uh, nature of this whole operation, I suppose.

[00:13:35] And, and that it's not like the, the, the most sound science, uh, group that is there. But, uh, at the end of the day, it's, it's spending a lot of time, um, for something that's not that significant. And again, I think, I think if you cleaned that up and you cleaned it up in a, in a more linear way,

[00:13:56] you could still find very interesting ways to tell a story that is tight and really find interesting ways to, um, to display what's going on. Because I think the, the strengths that are in this film are when they're in his memories and his mind and then things fade away. I think you, you brought that up. And I think that there's some really strong visuals there, but we spent a lot of time out of, out of his mind. And I think that's, that's kind of a problem.

[00:14:22] Um, you know, the interesting thing is you say that the B plots, uh, or where you feel like they, uh, they are, I wouldn't say pointless, but you feel like they're a distraction from the main film. But I feel like those, those reinforce the main film in a sense.

[00:14:41] So, you know, the relationship of Elijah Wood, uh, and, um, and, uh, Kate Winslet in this movie, um, kind of shows the nature of attraction. Basically, he has a cheat sheet to her, to what she finds interesting and what she finds, uh, attractive.

[00:15:04] He, he, he plays, he takes the book, the diaries that he wrote, and he tries to recreate those moments, uh, for her. Because he feels like he could just take the, the actions without the connection, uh, and that would breed a connection in itself. Um, and that's failed spectacularly because at the end of the movie, um, she's screaming at him to get away from her, uh, because he's a creep.

[00:15:32] Um, and it just felt wrong with her because when he said, this is the happiest moment that I've ever had, uh, while they laid under the star, kind of mirroring that moment she had, uh, with Jim Carrey, um, our reaction was just stand up and just walk away and go, I'm going, I want to go home. Meanwhile, with Jim Carrey, she moved in and snuggled closer. So basically what they're trying to say is, um, attraction is just, not just the action.

[00:16:01] There has to be a connection between the two of them. Um, I think the cat, the, the story of, of Kirsten Dunst and the doctor was also very interesting because it kind of shows the limitation of this kind of treatment. Um, I think the, you know, the doctor's wife felt this urge that he was doing it all over again. And she came, she snuck in, uh, as she watched through the window ever so briefly, uh, and starts to walk away.

[00:16:32] Kirsten Dunst comes out and is like, this is the first time it's ever happened. And she's like, just tell him, just tell her. Um, and then he says, you know, we've had a relationship. We have a history. Um, and that leads, leads to the end of the film where she discloses to all the patients that this is what's going on. Um, ethical or unethical? I don't know. What is unethical is the, is the, uh, what do you call it?

[00:16:59] The, the dangers of trusting something so intimate to, uh, people you don't know very well. The disrespect those doctors showed in his home, dancing on his bed, eating his food, um, while destroying his memories as he screamed out that he doesn't want this to end kind of shows the unethical nature of messing with memories.

[00:17:26] Um, and the, the story of the doctor and Kirsten Dunst was one that shows that despite the fact that you erase it, people are still going to be attracted to the same folks all over again. So it's, I think it's a, it's a movie about the human condition. Um, and I think it captures that very well. I mean, I mean, talk about unethical, like erasing, erasing your, um,

[00:17:57] underlings, memories of your affair and then keep them employed is a choice. Um, but again, it's just like showcasing how, um, unethical that whole operation is and how it might be scientific, but it's basically, it's the equivalent to, um, to, I don't know, by your diploma of Etsy. Right.

[00:18:23] Like that's, it's just like, uh, okay, we have a doctor's office, but it's like, we have this thing. Um, I don't know. I think the, again, the strengths are visuals, but, but story wise, there's not a lot necessarily that happens. It's a couple that falls in love. It's a couple that doesn't fall in love. It's a couple that wants to re-raise all the memories of each other, uh, with one trying to cling on to it. That, that's basically it. Right.

[00:18:48] And, um, I guess the, the only way to, I guess what we're learning with this film is the only way to make that compelling is to break the story apart in pieces and, and shuffle it around like crazy. And then have this, this, um, this convoluted kind of structure here to, to make it interesting and give it some interesting, interesting visual, um, appeal.

[00:19:17] But, uh, at the core, like there's not a lot there. Like if you really think about it. Right. I disagree. I think the movie is very deep. I mean, while the movie doesn't have a lot of forward action, I think it does have a lot of emotional depth.

[00:19:36] Um, and the characters, especially, uh, the characters that Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet play in this movie show a tremendous amount of range, uh, for their characters. Um, and we see them go through all the emotions that are required about love, um, from the moment you fall in love to the undeniable attraction that you do not understand.

[00:20:03] Um, to the sense of, um, of vulnerability that comes with being in love with someone, um, to the point where you begin to realize that, um, things are not going as well as you planned. Um, and, uh, and the discussions about marriage are now going into conversations about, you know, why it's difficult to live with you or you're boring now. Um, and, and things along those lines.

[00:20:29] And the fact that they had to sit down, uh, and listen to their critiques of each other at the end of the movie. Um, and they were basically naked because she was criticizing him. He couldn't take it. He leaves and she goes to his place and he was criticizing her and she was naked and she felt like she needed to leave. But they stand, um, together at the end of the movie and he says, just wait, just wait.

[00:20:59] Even if this is the worst idea in the world, I still want to do it for the memories. And I think that's the beauty of it. Um, that's the beauty of this movie. And that's why this movie is probably one of the most interesting movies about relationships, uh, that I've watched. Hmm. Interesting. Uh, well, I don't have anything further against this. Sure.

[00:21:30] Uh, we can go to the sidebar and, uh, discuss all the other parts. Overruled! Sidebar! Guilty! Speculation! Here! Say! Bailiff! Briefcase! Disregard! In my chamber! Stop Bieber and the witness! I rest! We could totally be lawyers. Sidebar. Yeah, this is a tough one. Sidebar! Yeah. This is a tough one because I think that there's a lot of strengths. Like, again, I think there's the strength of other visuals.

[00:21:53] Like, that is just some amazing practical filmmaking, um, that we're seeing here. And that's kind of what Gondry is famous for. Um, it's beautiful. Um, performances are great. Uh, one thing I was surprised that you didn't bring up is that I, I think kind of the moral of the story is, uh, like erasing memories is ultimately flawed because it's not giving

[00:22:20] you the, the end result that you desire because if you are attracted to somebody, um, like nature finds its way, right? We see that twice. We see that both with, uh, Kirsten Dunst and her, her, her boss, Tom Wilkinson's character, right? Like there, there's a natural just kind of like attraction from her to him. Mm-hmm. So even after erasing her, she still has this drive and kind of interest in him.

[00:22:45] And then, um, uh, the same with Winslet and, and, um, Clementine and Joel, right? Like they, they're coming back together. So it's, it's fundamentally saying like, even if you did this, this wouldn't work because, you know, if you have a match, you have a match. Um, so that's, that's kind of interesting. I think I talked about that. I, I, I, because I was talking about the fact that, you know, despite the fact that, you know, he was able to copy the works. He had the whole cheat sheet.

[00:23:12] Uh, he could read the lines, but it never felt natural with him. Yeah. And at the end of the movie, she was already like disgusted by him and just telling him to get the hell out of, get the hell out of his way, of her way. So there's a, there's like almost a connection that needs to be had for any of those things to make sense. That's fair. Yep. What do you think? I'm not going to, anything that you disliked about this? Well, I do think that the movie, I mean, you had a point when you talked about the movie

[00:23:41] being meandering at some points, um, because yeah, we're going through all the memory wipes. At some point it felt like, okay, I think we get the point of this. Um, maybe it was like after the fifth minute of being at his mom's place under the table, trying to get ice cream. And you're like, ah, I think I get the point. You know, these are suppressed memories, repressed memories.

[00:24:06] These are the, these are the conversations that, you know, uh, a little tricky for him to have. These are the things that he hid from her when they were together. Um, that he's still hiding from her because the version of her that he has in his mind is not the real version of her. So she never gets to see this part of himself. She never gets to see the humiliation. She never gets to see all of that. But I think they did meander a little bit too long in some of those scenes.

[00:24:34] Um, and while the beginning was very, um, interesting to watch, I think there were some parts of the movie that slowed down. Um, I didn't think I need to see the dancing for that long. Um, and the ending was a little bit, um, open-ended, even if I like to think of it from a positive perspective.

[00:24:59] So, um, I also didn't think this movie is a movie that a lot of people will appreciate. This is a, it feels like a niche film. This is a movie for people who like films like this. Like the Garden State folks. The, the people who love movies who just want to see like all the expressions. But I think the surrealistic nature of this film could, could, uh, could be less interesting for some people. I mean, it's kind of a Michel Gondry thing.

[00:25:26] Like, uh, like he, he likes that very artsy, um, surrealistic stuff. Uh, he's great at it. I think the, the thing that you mentioned, uh, like when he's under the table, uh, with his mom, like there's three different ways they, they play with him, jump back and forth with, uh, in that scene alone depicting that, right? Like one is a different sense of scale with, uh, Jim Carrey as a kid and then oversized, um, ways. There's some forced perspective.

[00:25:55] There are very lots of, a lot of the rings style kind of stuff. And then there's scenes with a kid playing, playing the Jim Carrey stuff, right? So, so it's like, it's a constant kind of playing with scale and like different sets and, and all that. And you see that on the playground as well, at some point, like it's Jim Carrey and Kate Woodstead playing the, the, the kids. But then there's like forced perspective stuff to make that work. But then there's, there's actual kids, but it's never really hidden. It's very obvious that that's going on.

[00:26:24] So that's, so that's kind of the brilliance of it. There's multiple scenes where he's walking down, uh, an alleyway and it's, it looks like one shot, but, uh, I think it's not, but it's, uh, you know, they're going back and forth and the alleyway changes. Um, like the storefronts change. Sometimes they're full with stuff. Sometimes they're completely empty and all that, um, like playful little things like that, that, that are great because it all looks so seamless and it's all in camera.

[00:26:49] Um, that really sets us apart, but it really disorients you because like, none of this is familiar. I think it really underlines the, the, um, the lack of reliability in memories too, in a way. Right. Which makes this whole thing also kind of like, uh, it's, it's, it's an exercise in that is destined to fail because you cannot erase something that is ultimately flawed because you cannot erase everything. Right.

[00:27:19] Like it's, it's, it's like little things where it's like, I don't know, you may have listened to a song together that you remember every time you listen to that song, but it may not be present while you collect all your thoughts and, and like memories. Right. So, so it's like, yeah. So go ahead. I think the biggest weakness that I would say is that the movies from his perspective, his vision of who she is.

[00:27:44] Um, and we know his vision of her is flawed because there's one thing he keeps saying, uh, is that she's promiscuous. Um, and the only way she gets herself to be appreciated by someone is by offering to have sex with them. Um, something she's denies extremely, um, hard.

[00:28:11] I mean, it was one of the reasons why they broke up in the first place because he made that statement. And then, you know, that idea persists in his head, uh, so much so that when he was playing the tape, he brought it up again and she heard it. And that made her want to leave the house.

[00:28:30] So we're watching this whole, um, perspective of this film with his perspective of her, his vision of her in his memory. Um, and we never get to see the counterbalance of it because we never get to see her perspective of him in her memory. That had already happened. We never got to see how boring he was. So we get to see this stuff from a flawed protagonist.

[00:28:59] Um, and we never get to see, we, I think that we, it was always printing himself as the victim, uh, in this movie, um, as opposed to what would have happened if we watched it from his, from her perspective too. So there's a, there's a flawed representation of the film. And I think that one of the things that we should make sure is you should never take his perspective as what exactly happens. Just that this is a story.

[00:29:27] This is his version of how things played out and nothing more. Yeah. I mean, it's like that, that whole memory racing thing is also a very childish kind of approach to solving a relationship, right?

[00:29:41] Like, um, how, how are you like, so Clementine did this, but he doesn't get the memo that this happened. Right. So obviously they meet again because he never had the chance to, to finish business, right? Like to, to kind of deal with that.

[00:30:08] So it's kind of setting him up for weird. And it's, it's a very weird concept. But I think is what, what I'm trying to get at. Like it's, it's an interesting narrative, right? And a very kind of interesting, like, oh, would I do that? But again, it's like ultimately flawed. And it's, it's such a childish way to, to deal with something you don't like. Like, I want to erase all of it. It seems to be kind of the immediate thought of a, of a child, right? I never want to think of this again, but it's like, it just seems like the relationship they had,

[00:30:38] like, there was no trauma. Like he was boring according to her, according to his version of her, right? Like he was just boring. So why would you want to erase that part of your life? I don't know. That seems so, so weird to me, but yeah. I mean, it makes for an interesting film. I think that's the reason why it would have been interested to see her perspective too, because she was the one who went ahead and did it initially.

[00:31:10] Cause who knows why she did it? I think the reason why he did it was because she did it and he wanted to do it to spite her, but it would have been more interesting to know why she did it. Was there infidelity involved? I don't know. Maybe she had given up, given everything. He never, we never talk about why they broke up. Yeah. And everybody liked her.

[00:31:39] And even the neighbor liked her more than he liked him. Because every time the neighbor saw him, he would ask about her. And when he saw her again, it was like, hey, it's you. Welcome back. So basically, who knows why she broke up with him? We don't know the reason why she wanted to remove him from her. Maybe she was so into him and he did something that she couldn't forget. And she wanted to get rid of him from her mind. Yeah. But I don't know. You know?

[00:32:08] Yeah. Interesting film. Definitely gone. You know, I waited watching this for quite a while. So I'm glad I've seen it now. Now I want to see Signs of Sleep though. I haven't seen Signs of Sleep. I don't know. Do you think that, so you think that's a direct sequel to this? No, no, no, no. It's just another film of his. But that's also like, it's very different. Okay.

[00:32:38] All right. Maybe I'll put it on my list. It's not on the, is it on the IMDb Top 250? I don't think so. I don't think so either. No, 7.2. Very low. Okay. Do you want to add anything else to this? No. Are we good with this? We're good with this, I think. Next up. Next up. Akira Kurosawa. Again. Akira Kurosawa. Uh, Ikiru. Yeah.

[00:33:08] That's a good film. Never seen it. You know, my original, um, my original, uh, podcast channel was about movie reviews. And, uh, Akira Kurosawa was one of the movie directors that I was really focusing on. Um, I did like a lot of Japanese movies, but yeah, this movie is, is interesting. All right. We'll talk about that in the next episode. Cool.

[00:33:38] But till then, you guys can find us on Facebook, on Blue Sky. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Uh, and on Instagram at Movie Mistrial. You can send us an email to contactatmoviemistrial.com. It was a little bit of a short episode because I think the general direction of this movie, uh, was, I think it's kind of straightforward. That's why the fact the movie is complex is still a straightforward. Discussion. Uh, one quick question before we go.

[00:34:08] Do you, do you think that this movie should have been higher on the list or lower on the list? So, so North Star is always, uh, what's that movie's name? Like, it should definitely replace, uh, what was that film? The Italian one we watched? Yeah. Forgotten the name too. Um, um, it's a wonderful life or something like that? The, uh, a beautiful, life is beautiful. Life is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:37] It should definitely replace that. I think, I honestly think this movie is, is better than some of the, even the Star Wars movies we watched recently. Yeah, I agree. Um, so, yeah. So, so, you know, yeah. I mean, maybe I'll just, you know, randomly cut this episode up into non-linear arguments. I'll see if anybody can keep up. I will not do that. But, um, yeah, no, it's good. It was good talking to you.

[00:35:06] And see you for the next one. Have a good, have a good week. And ciao, everyone.